Replay: People love explanations… their own explanations
Two years ago, I wrote a post called “People love explanations.” There’s a tendency among all people to dismiss anything that falls outside of their own explanation – especially their own explanation of God. (Of course, often that understanding of God is actually based on someone else’s explanation.)
We do love our explanations… our understandings… sometimes, it seems, we love our explanations and understandings more than we love God himself. But, then, I could be wrong.
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People love explanations
People like explanations. They like to explain things and have things explained to them.
When it comes to “theology” – what we think about God, which would include what we think about ourselves, others, and the world around us – we really, really like to have things explained to us. Unfortunately, Scripture doesn’t always explain things the way that we want them explained.
So, we explain them. Or, our favorite theologian or author or professor explains the things. Usually – almost always – we must go beyond what Scripture actually says in order to explain things in a way that is satisfactory. If not, things just seem… ummm… unexplained.
That’s fine. It’s good to think about things and try to understand. Of course, our explanations are probably wrong. We are imperfect creatures. But, still, we want things explained to us, or we want to explain them ourselves, and so we go about explaining things.
The problem comes along when someone else explains something in a different manner than the way that we explain them. It doesn’t matter that both explanations are interpolations and extrapolations of Scripture combined with our favorite philosophy and tradition. We like our explanation and so the other person’s explanation must be wrong… more wrong that our explanation certainly.
And, thus, we disagree, and label, and attack, and separate… over our explanations.
But, we love explanations. And, making everyone accept our explanation is what being a follower of Jesus is all about… right?
Singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs
Over the last few days, Eric at “A Pilgrim’s Progress” has been writing about hymns. He told his us “Top Ten Favorite Hymns” (many of mine are on his list), he discussed hymns as “A Gift from God to His People,” he encouraged “A Great Variety” in singing, and he says that hymns and house church are “Not a Simple Fit.”
Each of the posts were very good, but I especially appreciate the last one (even though I’m not part of a “house church.”)
For example, consider this part of his post:
If you have grown up in relatively large churches, you may have certain expectations as far as hymn singing is concerned. The performance-aspect of singing hymns in the home may at first seem lacking. However, the community side of hymn singing, at least in my opinion, more than makes up for this. I love to watch people’s faces up close when they sing deep theology. I take joy in viewing others take joy in Christ in song.
Yes, I also enjoy the “community side” of singing, even with people who “couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket” (which includes me). I especially enjoy it when someone asks to sing a song, then explains why that song is on their heart.
To me, there’s a big difference between one person bringing all the songs and “each one has a song.”
So, when you gather with other believers, and when you sing, how do you (the group) choose the songs?
The Vocational Pastor: examine all the evidence
I’m working through a few posts on the topic of discussing the “vocational pastor” – that is, I’m looking at the connection between elders/pastors and salaries in Scripture. In the first two posts (“The Vocational Pastor: an interesting discussion” and “The Vocational Pastor: keeping on topic“), I primarily wrote about why this is a difficult topic to discuss. The topic is personal and emotional for almost everyone involved. In the third post (“The Vocational Pastor: the definitions I use“), I explained what I mean by the phrase “vocational pastor.” Then, in the previous post (“The Vocational Pastor: tradition, background, and perspective“), I suggested that it is important to know a person’s background in order to better understand their perspective on this topic (or any other topic, for that matter).
So, what’s next? If we’ve carefully considered how to approach the topic, we’ve defined our terms, and we understand each other’s perspective, what do we do next? Well, we examine the evidence – all of the evidence. Since my desire is to examine the connection between salaries and elders/pastors in Scripture, then my evidence would primarily come from Scripture. Secondary sources, experiences, etc. would only be helpful in explaining Scripture. (Now, it might be beneficial to examine this topic based on other evidence besides Scripture, but that’s not my goal here.)
The difficulty is that there is no specific passage in Scripture that either commands or forbids salaries for elders/pastors. There is no “smoking gun,” if you will. (Someone could disagree with me on this point, of course.) Thus, any position that someone might hold on this topic would be derived from many different passages. And, that’s why it is important to study all of the evidence.
Plus, each passage would have to be studied in context to determine if and/or how it might relate to this specific topic. Is the passage related to salaries or some other type of benefit (financial or otherwise)? Is the passage related to elders? If either salaries or elders is not directly addressed in the passage, then an argument must be made to connect the passage to salaries and/or elders in spite of their direct absence. Furthermore, once you have determined that a passage of Scripture does (or does not) connect salaries with elders/pastors, you still need to figure out how the topics are (or are not) connected within that passage.
Finally, it’s important to understand the argument and position of those who disagree with you. At what point do they disagree? What evidence do they use? Are you examining the same evidence (even if you come to different conclusions)? If not, then you will probably end up talking past one another.
So, when discussing a topic like this, it is not generally helpful to throw your favorite Bible verse – even if you feel it is the lynch pin in your argument. Instead, it’s much more helpful to carefully consider and examine all of the available evidence, and carefully and thoughtfully consider the positions of those who disagree with you.
So, this is the end of my series on how to discuss the topic of the connection between elders/pastors and salaries in Scripture. The point of this series was NOT to present my position (although I do have a position, which is that Scripture does not support the practice of paying someone a salary in order for that person to be an elder/pastor). Instead, the point of this series was to help us all discuss this topic.
What would you add to this? What can we do to make this a topic that is easier to discuss, especially between those who disagree?
The Vocational Pastor: tradition, background, and perspective
I’m working through a few posts on the topic of discussing the “vocational pastor” – that is, I’m looking at the connection between elders/pastors and salaries in Scripture. As you can probably tell by now, I’m not actually presenting an argument for my position, although I do have a position. Instead, I’m trying to help us all think through how we can discuss this topic.
In the first two posts (“The Vocational Pastor: an interesting discussion” and “The Vocational Pastor: keeping on topic“), I primarily wrote about why this is a difficult topic to discuss. The topic is personal and emotional for almost everyone involved. In the third post (“The Vocational Pastor: the definitions I use“), I explained what I mean by the phrase “vocational pastor.” (Of course, someone else could be writing about this topic using a different definition, but if I didn’t know that, then we would be discussing or arguing about different things.)
In this post, I’d like for us to think about something a little different: tradition, background, experience, and perspective. As much as we would all like to think that our position is built only on Scripture or what is revealed to us by God, in reality many aspects of our lives work together to form our understanding of the connection between salaries and elders/pastors. (This is true for all of our beliefs and actions, of course.)
In order to understand my position, it helps to understand where I’ve come from as well as how I’ve arrived at where I am now. For example, I grew up in the Southern Baptist tradition, and I’m still highly associated with Southern Baptists. Until a few years ago, I’ve always been part of churches with vocational pastors.
That’s part of the story. Another part of the story is that I have never been hurt by vocational pastors, and I still have friends who are vocational pastors. I respect many of these people for many different reasons.
Another important aspect of my background (to this topic, anyway) is that I attended seminary in order to become a vocational pastor. I have the educational credentials to be a vocational pastor. Before attending seminary, I was actively pursuing a job as a vocational pastor. I’ve even been asked to be a vocational pastor.
Similarly, if you know how I came to the position that I hold, it would help our discussion. My position on this issue changed while I was in the middle of seminary. My belief about what Scripture says about the connection between elders/pastors and Scripture changed through studying Scripture. It did not change because of my job or because I was angry with anyone or because of a book or author that I read.
Also, if someone is discussing this topic with me, it’s probably important for that person to know that I am currently an elder, but I am not a vocational pastor. I am currently an elder, but I also work full-time to support myself and my family.
All of this background information can help someone understand my perspective on this topic. And, the more that we know about each other, the easier it is to discuss the connection between salaries and elders/pastors from the perspective of Scripture.
A warning to guard against copying other Christians
Jeremy at “Till He Comes” has written a very good post called “Stop Christian Cloning.” His post is not about DNA, or gene splicing, or Star Wars, or lambs named Dolly.
Instead, Jeremy is writing about one Christian copying what another Christian does or, more particularly, one church copying what another church does.
At one point, he writes:
As we seek to gain the wise counsel and guidance from other Christians, we must be on guard against copying other Christians.
It sometimes seems that Christians and churches spend more time and energy following certain church leaders and churches than they do in actually following Jesus. While Jesus will lead many of us down similar roads, He will also lead different people and different church down completely unique and diverse roads that have never before been travelled.
I agree with Jeremy, and I can also see that this kind of “copying” has caused problems, both on the personal and group levels.
But, we do have to consider Paul’s exhortation, “Be imitators of me as I am of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:1) Also, consider 1 Corinthians 4:16, Philippians 3:17, 1 Thessalonians 1:6, 1 Thessalonians 2:14, 2 Thessalonians 3:7-9, Hebrews 6:12, Hebrews 13:7, and 3 John 11.
So, what’s the difference between “cloning Christians” (per Jeremy’s warning) and imitating others as referred to by the authors of Scripture?
The Vocational Pastor: the definitions I use
This is the third post in my series on “The Vocational Pastor.” In the first two posts (“The Vocational Pastor: an interesting discussion” and “The Vocational Pastor: keeping on topic“), I primarily wrote about why this is a difficult topic to discuss. The topic is personal and emotional for almost everyone involved.
Whether someone believers that Scripture supports or does not support paying a salary to someone in order for that person to be a pastor/elder, almost everyone has a story or experience to bring into the discussion. Almost everyone has a personal stake in this discussion – some have a bigger stake than others.
So, when we are discussing this topic (or any other topic such as this), we must understand the emotional and personal nature of the topic. This is a difficult issue to address in the abstract because of the real consequences involved.
It helps, though, to define exactly what we’re talking about. When I use the phrase “vocational pastor,” what do I mean? Some use the phrase “professional pastor” or “paid pastor” or something similar.
When I use the phrase “vocational pastor,” I’m talking about someone who has accepted and carries out a certain role among a group of Christians (church) because that group has agreed (beforehand) to pay that person in exchange for carrying out that role. For the “vocational pastor,” if the money was not available (for whatever reason), then that person’s role and function among the church would change drastically.
The fact that a person is or is not a “vocational pastor” is not related to the person’s relationship with God, or the person’s ability or effectiveness at helping others follow Jesus, or the person’s motivation or work ethic.
For example, I am currently employed as a web developer for an educational institution. In exchange for my work, I am paid a salary that we agreed on beforehand. If I did not receive that salary, I would not do this work for them. The salary, however, does not affect my relationship with God, my work as a disciple-maker, my work ethic, etc.
Also, when I say that I believe that Scripture does not support the idea of paying someone a salary in order to be an elder/pastor, I’m talking about the connection between a salary (as discussed above) and the role of elder as found in Scripture. In making that statement, I am not (yet) assigning a value (good or bad) to “vocational pastors.” I’m simply stating that the practice cannot be supported from Scripture. (The question of the value of “vocational pastors” is a separate question that should be dealt with separately.)
(Note: I use the term “pastor” in this post and others because it is used so widely among the church today. I prefer the term “elder.” To me, pastoring/shepherding as found in Scripture is a spiritual gift like teaching, prophesying, serving, etc. An elder is instructed to shepherd, but that does not necessarily mean the elder has the spiritual gift of shepherding, just as an elder and all other Christians are instructed to serve, but that doesn’t mean that they all have the spiritual gift of serving.)
One of my new projects: Online classes for homeschoolers
A couple of weeks ago, I told you that I had been slow to respond to comments because of a couple of new projects that I’m working on. At that time, I could not tell you too much about either project. But, now, I can tell you about one of those projects.
My wife and I are working with some friends of ours to offer online and in person classes for homeschoolers. The project is called “Engaging Education.” Currently, we are offering classes in Literature, Grammar, and Latin for middle school and high school students.
Eventually, we also hope to offer classes for adults as well as for elementary school students. These are not accredited type classes. Instead, they are simply helps for parents or adults who enjoy independent study but want a little help when it comes to planning, accountability, assessment, etc.
One of my long range goals is to include online classes in NT (Koine) Greek for high school students and adults. If I’m able to do this, I’ll post more information here.
If you homeschool your children, and if you’re still looking for curriculum content for next year, please look through our site at EngagingEd.com.
The Vocational Pastor: keeping on topic
In my previous post “The Vocational Pastor: an interesting discussion,” I said that whenever I’m part of a discussion about the relationship or connection between salaries and pastors/elders in Scripture (or when I just read other discussions), it seems that the discussion rarely (if ever) stays on that topic. Instead, the conversation seems to automatically drift into other topics and almost always ends in extreme rhetoric.
In fact, in that previous post, I asked my readers to comment only by answering these two questions:
1) Do you believe that Scripture supports the concept of paying a salary to someone in order for that person to be an elder/pastor (or other kind of leader) for a group of believers (i.e., a church)? (Simple a statement of what you do or do not believe concerning this, please.)
2) Why do you think people who agree with you (NOTE: people who AGREE with you) sometimes immediately jump to other issues that are not related to salaries and pastors/elders? (Do not turn this into a defense of your position.)
Now, like I said in that post, I know that we all come into this discussion with certain biases and presuppositions. That’s true of almost any position. For example, my own position is that it is not possible to support the practice of paying someone a salary in order for that person to be an elder/pastor. I know that my belief in that area affects the way that I interact with other people concerning this topic.
However, because of various aspects of this issue, this particular topic is extremely personal and causes emotional responses on both (all) sides of the issue.
Those who agree with me that Scripture does not support paying someone a salary to be an elder/pastor often assume that a person who is paid to be an elder/pastor is controlling or abusive or that the person is greedy.
Those who disagree with me and instead believe that Scripture does support paying someone a salary to be an elder/pastor often assume those who disagree want to do away with any kind of leadership or do not care whether or not people are shepherded/discipled.
Are the assumptions above true in some cases? Yes. But, none of the assumptions (or the actions/beliefs involved) are actually related to the topic of the connection between salaries and pastors/elders in Scripture.
Then, of course, the rhetoric gets even stronger. In fact, I’ve heard people on both (all) sides of this discussion suggest that those who disagree are out to destroy the body of Christ.
People on all sides of this issues are followers of Jesus Christ, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, growing in maturity in Jesus Christ, and helping others grow in Christ. Obviously, people on all sides of this discussion think that their position is God’s desire for his people and supported by Scripture, and, in the same way, people on all sides of this issue think that those who disagree are somehow harming God’s people.
But, we must learn to stay on topic, friends. And, we must remember that the brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree with you are NOT your enemy, that God loves them just as much as he loves you, and that God is using them to further his kingdom.
So, how do we help one another keep this discussion on topic? (I will be a little more lax with these comments than I was with the comments on the previous post.)
Listening to different voices among the church
This last weekend was a whirlwind of activity – all good – but all tiring. So, last night, when we finally returned home, and I began perusing the latest posts in my Google Reader, I was excited to see one by Arthur at “The Voice of One Crying Out in Suburbia” called “Anabaptism is not the answer.”
Now, please don’t misunderstand the title of Arthur’s post. This is not a post trashing Anabaptists. In fact, Arthur says that he appreciates much about Anabaptists – as do I.
The point of the post is to point us outside the cloisters (inbreeding?) of our own pet traditions. In fact, in the post, Arthur writes more about the Reformed tradition than about the Anabaptist tradition.
As good as the rest of the post is, I especially liked the last paragraph:
The church would be a lot healthier if we would all look outside of our pet faith tradition and humbled ourselves to learn from those we might disagree with. One thing I have especially been blessed by over the last couple of years is exposure to authors and ideas that I would have recoiled from as not being “Reformed” a few years ago. As I have moved away from the idea that being “Reformed” is the pinnacle of the Christian experience, I have actually come to cherish the very real contributions of Reformed writers even more, in spite of their flaws.
So, if you are going to read, then read widely. Read books written by people from other faith traditions. And, don’t read them so that you can point out areas of disagreement. Read them to understand your brothers and sisters in Christ, and you just might find that you also begin to understand God better.
The Vocational Pastor: an interesting discussion
A couple of weeks ago, in my post “Do pastors have their cake and eat it too?” I linked to a post by Eric (and “A Pilgrim’s Progress“) called “Cake.” In that post, Eric suggested that the work of being a vocational pastor is easy or “cake.”
I’ve followed various posts that have been written in response to Eric’s post, some agreeing with Eric and some disagreeing. (You can find links to those responses in the comments on my post, in the comments on Eric’s post, and in the comments on some of those other posts.)
Now, if you’ve followed my blog for very long, then you probably know that I do not think that Scripture supports the idea of paying someone a salary in order for that person to hold the position of pastor/elder for a church (i.e., a group of believers). However, that does not mean that I believe that all vocational pastors are evil or that they have chosen their position for personal gain or in order to control others.
That said, I have been surprised by the rhetoric involved on both sides (or all sides, I suppose) of this discussion. It has been interesting to notice how intricately people automatically associate being a vocational pastor with many other things. Some automatically associate being a vocational pastor with very positive things, while others automatically associate being a vocational pastor with very negative things.
It seems that it is almost impossible for people to discuss the concept of salaried pastors/elders without venturing into those other topics. (Again, I’ve noticed this on all sides of the discussion/argument.) Granted, we all have a bias in this discussion – and, since I’ve already stated my bias, you know that I’m including myself when I say, “We all have a bias.”
I’ve noticed that automatically associating the concept of vocational pastors with other aspects of our relationship with Christ and with one another often leads to extreme rhetoric. (Yes, I’m sure that I’ve been guilty of this same thing in the past.)
Is it possible for believers to discuss this concept without the rhetoric? I honestly don’t know. I know that it is a very personal issue for people on all sides of the argument.
Over the next few days, I plan to write a series of posts looking at various aspects of this discussion. I do not plan to present my own case. That’s not the purpose. Instead, I want us to look at the state of the discussion itself.
I want to ask you to help me get this discussion started. This is what I’d like for you to do… answer the following questions:
1) Do you believe that Scripture supports the concept of paying a salary to someone in order for that person to be an elder/pastor (or other kind of leader) for a group of believers (i.e., a church)? (Simple a statement of what you do or do not believe concerning this, please.)
2) Why do you think people who agree with you (NOTE: people who AGREE with you) sometimes immediately jump to other issues that are not related to salaries and pastors/elders? (Do not turn this into a defense of your position.)
For this post, I’m asking you to stick to the questions above. There will be other opportunities to discuss other aspects of this question in the later posts. (I will be strict with the comments on this post.)