Answering all questions about discipleship
A few days ago, Guy from “The M Blog” wrote a new post called “Discipleship questions worth pondering.” I decided that I would give Guy some definitive answers to his questions and to all questions ever asked about discipleship. Ok. Not really. But, I did ponder his questions and thought I would offer a few “ponderings” in print.
For those of us who are following Jesus Christ, I think discipling is (or should be) very important. If Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are correct, the some of the last words spoken by Jesus after his resurrection and before his ascension related to discipling others in some form or fashion.
A couple of Guy’s questions seem to be related to me:
1. Can a person be a disciple and not yet a believer in Jesus, a “Christian.”
2. Can you disciple an unbeliever?
Of course, answering these questions depends on defining the word “disciple.” The Greek term translated “disciple” has a range of meanings (as does almost every word in every language). The word translated “disciple” could simply mean “pupil” or “learner.” In that sense, anyone learning anything about Jesus becomes a “disciple” of Jesus. John occasionally uses this meaning of the word “disciple” in his Gospel. (For example, see John 6:66, in which John says, “After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.”) This use of the term “disciple” could include an unbeliever.
However, there are other meanings of the term translated “disciple.” Primarily in the New Testament I think the term translated “disciple” refers to someone who is more than a pupil or learner and is instead someone who follows the life and teachings of a leader. In this case, the “leader” would be Jesus. So, only a believer could be a disciple. In fact, faith in Christ (salvation, if you prefer) is the first step in “following Jesus” or the first step as a disciple.
Here’s another good question that Guy asked:
3. When someone becomes a believer or Christian, can we consider them as a “disciple made?”
In one sense, a “disciple” is made at the point the person trusts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. However, as I said earlier, a disciple is someone who actually follows the life and teaching of Jesus. So, a disciple is never completely made until the person’s life is complete. Thus, the life of a disciple in following Jesus includes always learning more about what it means to follow Jesus.
I’m going to skip a few questions:
9. Are we to obey the teaching component of the Great Commission, or are we to step out of the way and let Jesus (or the Spirit) teach others directly?
Yes. Teaching others to obey everything that Jesus commanded, includes just that – teaching. So, yes, that is part of both being a disciple of Jesus and helping others in their lives as disciples of Jesus. Of course, we know that the ultimate and final teacher is Jesus (through the Holy Spirit). So, while we teach others (and learn from others), we also help them (and learn to) listen to Jesus on our own. The two are not distinct, but complimentary forms of teaching.
And, the last questions that I’m going to “ponder” in this post:
11. If the making of disciples, or discipleship requires that we teach others to observe/obey ALL that Jesus commanded, then wouldn’t that take a considerable amount of time? Are we relieved of our responsibility to teach when we have taught all of those commandments?
Even if we DID teaching all of Jesus’ commands, we would not have done what Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20 (the great commission). Why? Because, as Guy said in the question, Jesus said to teach people to observe/obey. That cannot be completed by teaching a list of commands. It takes time. How much time? Well, as much time as necessary… but more than we usually assume. I think it’s easier to assume that it takes a lifetime.
So, there you go. All you need to know about discipleship.
Actually, I’d love to hear your thoughts on these questions (or any of the other questions that Guy asked in his post).
Love is patient… especially when it comes to change among the church
Kathleen at “Church in a Circle” has finished her 12 post series called “Tomorrow’s Church.” The last post in the series is called “Tomorrow’s church – Part 12: It’s time to shift your mindset.” (There are links to all 12 posts in Kathleen’s series at the bottom of that last post.)
Kathleen’s last post in the series is all about change. Change. I don’t know if you’ve heard this before, but change is not easy… it’s not comfortable… it’s not always pleasant. And, that’s just change in the life of one person. What happens when you multiply change over many people?
This is what Kathleen says about change among the church:
Change is happening in the church as we speak. You may or may not be aware of the simple church movement, the organic church movement, the missional movement. In the past month, I’ve attended two meetings in my city where entire denominations are exploring new, discipleship-centred models of church. There is a steady movement among God’s people worldwide towards a fresh expression of church, towards participation, engagement, involvement and empowerment. There is a rumbling discontent amongst pastors and churches, and a Godly longing to make disciples instead of filling pews. The majority of God’s people in every denomination are uncomfortably aware that the system is no longer working.
I agree with Kathleen. Change is happening. People recognize that there are problem, and many are addressing the problems. Certainly different people are addressing different problems, and they are addressing them in different ways. But, the thing is, change is happening.
Her post made be think about what happens when different churches (i.e., different groups of brothers/sisters in Christ) began to change. I’ve been part of a group that has been changing (continues to change) for several years. I’ve also observed others churches who have been changing also… and many of them (most?) have been changing differently than us.
So, what happens when a group of brothers and sisters in Christ are changing, but they are not changing in the way or in the speed that we think they should change? Or what happens when someone thinks that you should change in a different way or at a different speed than you are changing? (And, you are changing, right?)
Is that the time for strong proclamations, denouncements, taking sides, separating, shouts of heresy… Well, if you read some blogs or books or articles, you might think that’s the right response.
But, I think that’s the wrong response… completely wrong.
Instead, change… and change is always occurring, right?… change is a time for patience.
So, I definitely agree with Kathleen that churches are changing. As we see that change (whether it’s happening like we think it should or not), we must have patience… patience with God… patience with others… and patience with ourselves.
Five Secrets (and more) Pastors MUST Tell
Last week, Adrian Warnock linked to a post from last June written by Thom Rainer called “Five Secrets Pastors Refuse to Tell.” The point of the original post is that pastors are often told secrets by other people and must keep those secrets in confidence. Similarly, pastors have secrets of their own – related to themselves and their families – that they do not tell others. As Rainer states, “These spiritual leaders refuse to share their thoughts or pains for fear that their own ministries will be damaged.”
What kinds of things are on Rainer’s lists of secrets kept by many (most?) pastors?
- “My marriage is struggling.”
- “I fear my kids will grow up hating the church.”
- “I let a handful of critics control me.”
- “I often have anger toward the supportive church members who don’t defend me to my critics.”
- “I’ve thought about quitting several times.”
I have a huge concern with this list and with similar lists. Now, I understand that there is a context to this list. When Rainer (and others) use the term “pastor” in contexts like this, they are referring to the leader(s) of a religious organization. This person may or may not be spiritually gifted at pastoring. This person may or may not be actually pastoring anyone. The title refers to a position within the organization.
When Rainer states, “These spiritual leaders refuse to share their thoughts or pains for fear that their own ministries will be damaged,” he’s referring to their position within the organization being damaged. And, keeping the kinds of secrets that Rainer lists (and other similar secrets) is a good way for someone to protect themselves and their positions within these organizations.
But, the problem is that when it comes to actually pastoring – actually shepherding other people in order to help them follow Jesus Christ and grow in maturity – keeping these kinds of secrets is antithetical to the desired goal.
You cannot help people learn to interact with their spouses in the Lord while at the same time keeping your own struggles a secret. You cannot teach people who to live with, love, and be at peace with those who oppose them or disagree with them by keeping secrets about those who oppose or disagree with you. You cannot show people what it means to follow Jesus Christ if you see your own role as something that can be “quit.”
How do we move away from the kind of life that believes it’s necessary to keep these kinds of secrets from brothers and sisters in Christ? I think it’s fairly simply… because I’ve been through it. It requires moving away from positional ministry among the church. It requires moving away from using and understanding terms like “pastor,” “evangelist,” etc. as positions and instead see and live them as ways to serve others. It requires refusing to see the “church” as an organization and instead to live with the people themselves as the church.
Are we willing to move away from these positional ways of thinking and more toward relational ways of thinking and living? If not, then it will be necessary to continue to keep these kinds of secrets from others in order to maintain our positions in the organization.
But, if we’re truly interested in pastoring – not in title, but in service in the Lord – then we will seek to open up our lives to others – warts and all – in order to help them follow Jesus Christ – even if it means we lose our positions among the organizations.
un-loving one another
Believe it or not, the “one another” chain blog is still going strong – although it has slowed down slightly.
The “one another” chain blog started over two months ago with my post “Chain blog: One Another.” Since then, 17 bloggers have written 21 posts on the topic of “one another.”
If you’re interested, I’ve linked to and provided a short blurb for each “link” in the chain in my post called “Blog with One Another: A Chain Blog Update.” (I keep that post updated as new links are added to the chain blog.)
The posts in the chain blog have covered many different aspects of the various “one another” passages in Scripture. Some of them have been more theoretical and some have been more practical. Of course, all of them are practical, because living for “one another” is extremely practical.
I want to highlight the last two posts in the chain, because they focus on “un-loving one another” or choosing who to love.
First, there’s Dan’s post “love: a ‘one another’ comic.” As the title indicates, Dan’s post is actually a comic. Who do we love? Do we get to choose who to love? If so, then “love one another” is quite doable. But, if we don’t get to choose who to love, then “love one another” becomes absolutely impossible… at lest it’s humanly impossible.
Then, there’s the latest post in the chain blog. It was written by Rob, and it’s called “I Can Only Love You If…” After asking us to consider who we love, Rob says:
You might be thinking, “Shucks, that’s a high standard! Only God can be like that!” Exactly, the unconditional love for one another in the body of Christ and for people in the world can only come from God. It’s the fruit of the Spirit.
Yes, that’s the point, isn’t it!
If you haven’t yet, I hope you’ll read the various posts in the chain blog. Like I said, there are some really good posts there.
And, while you’re at it, why not write the next link post in the chain? Just jump over the last post and leave a comment saying that you’re going to write another post in the chain.
Finding Church – a new book with 36 authors (including me)
Last spring, my friend Jeremy from “Till He Comes” asked if I’d be interested in writing a chapter for a new book that he was putting together. He was asking people to write on one of four topics: changing churches, leaving church, reforming the church, and returning to church. I decided to take part in the project by writing a chapter on one of the topics.
I later wrote a series of blog posts about the project, with an introduction and one post for each topic: changing churches, leaving church, reforming the church, and returning to church. If you haven’t read those posts, I hope you will, because I think they help explain my understanding of church, and how that understanding has changed over the last few years.
In all, Jeremy gathered 36 different authors to write for this project. In the end, he condensed his 4 topics into 3: leaving church, switching church, and reforming church. He told us about all 36 authors in a post called “All the Finding Church Authors.” (Click each name to learn more about that particular author.)
(By the way, my chapter is in the section “reforming the church.”)
The book is now available. You can find out more from Civitas Press (the publisher), and you can even buy it on Amazon in paperback or for your Kindle device.
Here’s the publisher’s blurb about the book:
What happens when people begin to question church?
Millions of people are “leaving church” each year as they begin to question the deeper meanings and structures of gathering together. They’re asking a fundamental question of, “What does it mean to participate in church and what would happen if we did something different?”
They are not abandoning God, ignoring Scripture, or giving up on Jesus. While a few do leave for such reasons, the vast majority report that they leave church to better follow Jesus, obey God, and live out their faith in meaningful and relational ways. They stop attending church to pursue something more intimate and personal.
Finding Church explores these stories of people leaving, switching, and even reforming their basic understanding of church. It will open your eyes to a growing trend in culture for people to take responsibility for their faith.
I haven’t received my author’s copy of the book yet. But, when I do, I hope to read the other chapters and write a review. If you read the book, please let me know what you think (both about my chapter and the other chapters).
But, aren’t the kids a distraction when the church gathers?
Last week, Gavin at “Simple Church Alliance” wrote a great post called “What About The Kids?” Whenever people think about more organice or simple types of church gatherings, they often (eventually) ask the question, “But what do you do with the children?”
The assumption, of course, is that we gather as the church in order to sing together and to listen to someone preach a sermon. If this is the case, then a loud child or a crying baby can be a distraction. If a toddler next to me is moving around, then I may not be paying attention to the words that are being sung. If a baby near me cries, then I may not be able to hear the speaker.
Gavin suggests that children should not be seen as a distraction, but should instead be involved in the church gathering. He provides several suggestions that he’s seen practiced over the last several years, including:
Pray & Prepare
Get A Sitter
Music
Skits
Listening To God
One Anothers
Dance
Kids Focus
Please click over to Gavin’s post for a longer list, and for a description of each item in his list.
Often, children gather with us on Sundays – not to mention the times we get together throughout the week. There are newborns, toddlers, younger children, older children, teenagers… almost every age group.
Guess what? Children are often loud, talkative, fussy, etc. And, I’m talking about well-behaved children. That’s the way children are.
So, what do we do when children “disrupt” our gathering or are a “distraction”? Well, first, we recognize that the children are not a disruption and they are not a distraction. They are children, and they are part of our families. They are welcomed in our gathering – talking, crying, fussing, and all.
That attitude alone solves most of the problems. If we’re honest with ourselves, children are seen as a disruption or a distraction because WE are not able to do what WE want to do because of them. In other words, WE can’t hear, or WE can’t sing, or WE can’t pay attention. In other words, we’re centered on ourselves and our desires. When those desires are not met because of talkative or crying children, we see them as a distraction.
But, think about what would happen if, instead of focusing on us and our desires, we focused on others – including the children (and their parents)?
There are so many different options when a child becomes “disruptive”… play with them… walk with them… color with them… Yes, we love coloring books, stickers, blocks, puzzle. And, yes, we sit right there in the floor with them in the middle of everyone else (or off to the side if there’s room).
Not only do the children understand that they are important, but the parents also understand how much we love them.
I’ve found many times that my worship in a church gathering consisted of sitting in the floor and putting stickers on a piece of paper with a few children. In doing that, I was obeying what God was calling me to do, and I was loving others. What could be better?
Some thoughts about “Scripture… As We Live It”
I’ve been writing the “Scripture… As We Live It” series since May 2008 (this is the first post). Tomorrow, I plan to publish the 237th post in the series. It’s a fun series for me to write, and I always enjoy the feedback. It seems that everyone agrees with some of the re-mixes and disagrees with others.
I also enjoy it when other people do their own re-mixes. (I’m certainly not claiming to be the first to do this…) For example, Eric writes his “Tradition Says” posts, and Jon has his “Playdough Scripture.” There have been others, but those are the two that I could find quickly. (Also, my friend Art created an animation based on one of my SAWLI posts.)
Recently, I’ve been honored to see that someone else is commenting on my SAWLI posts as well. Over at “Some Thoughts on Being Christian,” an author named JC has written a few posts based on some of the re-mixed Scriptures and he includes some of his own thoughts as well. You can find all of his posts here: “Scriptures about church… As we live them.”
I’m glad this idea has caught on with many bloggers. I really appreciate the many people who have followed my series and have commented on the posts.
When I was a featured blogger…
Usually, on Saturdays, I “replay” one of my older blog posts. But, I was recently reminded of an interview that I did five years ago with a friend of mine for a blog called “Said at Southeastern.” The interview was in a post called “Featured Blogger: Alan Knox.” And, if you’re interested, here are a few more interviews that I’ve done: “Interview with Alan Knox” (by Dave Black from March 2007), “A Conversation with Alan Knox” (by Michael Halcomb from December 2007), and “Alan Knox: Conversations w/ Friends” (an audio interview by Dan Allen from March 2011). There was another interview from 2009, but unfortunately it’s no long available online. Enjoy!
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Featured Blogger: Alan Knox
This month’s featured blogger is Alan Knox, a Ph.D. student at Southeastern. He has an excellent blog entitled The Assembling of the Church. We took the time to ask Alan a few questions that will hopefully encourage you to check out his blog. Enjoy!
Background Information:
Tell us a little about yourself
I’m 40 years old. I was born in Alabama and lived there until 8 years ago (except for college). I went to college at Georgia Tech and have degrees in Electrical Engineering. I love computers, reading, and spending time with people.
Tell us a little about your family
I’ve been married to Margaret for 19 years. We met in the fourth grade. We have two children – Jeremy (almost 14) and Miranda (10). We also have two dogs – Lucy and Aggie.
Does your family read your blog?
My wife reads my blog, and my children read if there’s something about them. Actually, to be completely honest, Margaret likes reading the comments. Yes, that means that she likes to read what other people have to say more than she likes to read what I have to say.
Tell us a little about your walk with the Lord
God saved me when I was about 10. I wish I could say that I grew in grace and stature, but I didn’t. In fact, for many years I considered myself an agnostic. I never stopped believing in God, but I didn’t know exactly what that meant. Almost 15 years ago, I began to be discipled by several different men, each teaching me how to walk with God, both by their words and their example. Today, I try to walk with God in everything that I do. I recognize that I rely completely on him for growth and obedience.
About his Blog:
How long have you been blogging?
I’ve been blogging since March 2006.
Why did you decide to start blogging?
I decided to start blogging to aid me in my studies. In May 2006, I began the Ph.D. program at SEBTS. I’m majoring in biblical theology with a focus on ecclesiology. Blogging gives me an outlet for much of my studies, to help me think through and discuss different ideas. But, this is not simply about theoretical discussions. I also practice much of what I discuss.
How did you choose the name The Assembling of the Church?
Well, I’m studying the purpose for the meeting of the church in Scripture. The title reflects that focus. I usually blog about the church. Other blog names that I wanted to use were already taken.
How much time a week do you put into your blogging?
The amount of time that I spend blogging changes from week to week. I write fast. So, it doesn’t take me as much time to think through these issues and write about them as you might think.
It appears that you spend a lot of time studying and thinking through your posts. How did you process this information before you started blogging?
I spend a lot of time reading – reading Scripture, reading for Ph.D. seminars, and “fun” reading. Usually, by the time I write a blog post about an issue, I’ve discussed it with various friends and family members. Sometimes, I simply write descriptive posts about things that have happened. Many of my ideas come from interaction with other bloggers. I especially appreciate commenters on my blog, even when they disagree with my views. I’ve learned a lot from interacting with them.
Do you or your readers have a favorite post or series of posts?
The most read post that I’ve written is called “The Church or the Organization” with a post called “Summary – Should elders/pastors be paid a salary?” quickly gaining ground.
If you could give us a list of several blogs you regularly read and enjoy, what would be on it?
I have too many blogs in my blog reader to recommend just one or two. I guess the ones that I would recommend are on the sidebar of my blog.
How specialization harms the church
“I’m not gifted in that area, so I don’t have to do that.”
“That’s not my ministry, so I’ll leave that for someone else to do.”
“I was called to do something else, so that’s not my responsibility.”
I’ve heard those excuses my whole life, and, for a long time, I bought into it. But, in the last few years, I’ve changed my mind. In fact, I think this kind of specialization harms the church.
The question was raised recently by Miguel at “God Directed Deviations” in his post “Aren’t All Christians Supposed to Make Disciples, Be Witnesses, and Evangelize?”
Miguel offers a couple of quotes: one of which supports that specialization based on giftings while the other does not support this kind of specialization. There is some back and forth (but still a good discussion) in the comments as well.
So, what is the discussion about? Well, according to Scripture, we know that some people are gifted at teaching. Others are gifted at encouraging. Still others are gifted at serving. In fact, we find many different spiritual gifts listed in Scripture, and it’s clear that 1) different people have different gifts, 2) no one has every gift, and 3) those with a certain gift should serve in that way.
The question is, then, who is responsible for teaching? For encouraging? For serving? For giving? For pastoring? For administering? For prophesying?
Are those gifted in those areas responsible for serving in those areas? Of course they are. Peter states that emphatically in 1 Peter 4:10. Paul says something similar in 1 Corinthians 12:7.
But, here’s the thing, given that those gifted are responsible for serving in that particular area, it does not follow logically (or scripturally) that others are not responsible for serving in that particular area. In fact, I think that all followers of Jesus Christ are responsible for teaching, serving, giving, encouraging, prophesying, pastoring, showing mercy, and any other type of service toward others.
Why would I conclude that all believers are responsible for these types of service (even when not gifted in that area)? Well, there are several reasons. For one, the results of any kind of service are not dependent upon the one serving, but upon God working through his Spirit in the life of the person serving. Also, the multitude of “one another” passages which are addressed to all believers (at least, all recipients of that particular letter) moves us away from any kind of specialization.
Thus, I believe that ALL Christians are responsible to “teach one another,” even those who are gifted at teaching. I believe that all followers of Jesus are supposed to “serve one another,” even those who are gifted as servants. All believers should “encourage one another,” even those who have been given the gift of encouragement.
So, what happens when only those gifted in teaching teach? What happens when only those who have the spiritual gift of evangelism do the evangelizing? What happens when only the spiritually gifted pastors serve through shepherding others? What happens is that the church is hindered in its growth and maturity, and we began to rely on certain people instead of relying on the Holy Spirit.
The church truly is a relational organism, and we rely on God’s life and power in each and every one of us, in whichever way he chooses to work at any time.
Yes, it is our responsibility, our calling, and our ministry.
The Call to Worship
While we’ve been studying through Ephesians on Sunday mornings, we keep tripping over the word walk. Of course, these instructions about “walking” are actually instructions about living. And, of course again, living is something that take place every day… every minute actually.
When you think about the way you “walk” (or live), do you only think about certain times or certain situations? Of course not. Life never stops. Our “walk” never stops. Whether we are walking in a worthy manner or not, we are always walking.
Just to get the juices flowing… here are the passages that I’m referring to:
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience… (Ephesians 2:1-2 ESV)
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 ESV)
I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called… (Ephesians 4:1 ESV)
Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. (Ephesians 4:17 ESV)
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. (Ephesians 5:1-2 ESV)
Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true)… (Ephesians 5:8b-9 ESV)
Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the best use of the time, because the days are evil. (Ephesians 5:15-16 ESV)
Now, when I was meditating on those passages, I came across the post below on Dave Black’s blog (November 24, 2012 at 8:52 a.m.):
“Now let us prepare our hearts for worship this morning” is perhaps the most-repeated sentence you’ll hear when you enter church on Sunday mornings. It is, of course, completely unbiblical. Worship is 24/7 (see Rom. 12:1-2). We don’t come to church to worship; we come as worshippers.
Theologically, the church has no “place of worship.” God already dwells within the community of His followers. A church building can never properly be called a “worship center” because that title has been reserved, under the New Covenant, for God’s people. For me, having a “call to worship” is a witness to a deep lack of biblical understanding. True worship, real biblical worship, takes place Monday through Saturday as much as it does on Sunday.
I wonder what would happen if Christians stopped seeing a certain time at a certain place as “worship” and understood that every step they took (in their “walk”) is or is not worship. It can be worship… it may not be worship.
I wonder what would happen if Christians began to realize that God is probably more concerned with how they live at other times than what they do when they enter a “church building” (or a home church, for that matter).
It’s about our walk… not about a special time of “worship.”