An encouraging dialog between a Catholic and a Baptist
A few weeks ago, Brian Britton contacted me on facebook. Brian and I attended elementary school together until the fourth grade when his family moved. When he saw my name on facebook, he remembered be because some of my teachers inadvertently called me “Alan Know”.
Brian is Catholic, so there are some fairly major differences in our theology. However, in spite of our differences, we’ve had some very encouraging dialogs. I asked him if I could post our last dialog, and he agreed (and even said he might follow the comments). So, this is a conversation that I had with Brian on facebook. I believe dialogs like this are very important, but I also think that many Christians have lost the ability to dialog, and choose to debate instead. I hope you find this as interesting and encouraging as I did.
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Brian: Have you read any of the second Vatican Council’s Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, Dei Verbum?
I was thinking about it when you were discussing macro-structure analysis when interpreting scripture.
And you teach Latin, too. Nice.
Pax Christi sit semper tecum.
Alan: I have read some of the documents from Vatican II. I’m not sure that I’ve read those particular documents.
What do you think about Catholic Churches who perform the mass in Latin?
Brian: Funny you should mention that. I actually attend a Tridentine Mass. I am part of the schola and we sing the Gregorian Chant propers (the chants proper to the Sunday being celebrated-usually verses of Psalms). Since Pope Benedict loosened the restrictions that were placed on that Mass, there have been some changes, specifically the readings of the Epistle and the Gospel are done in the vernacular. What do I think about it? I think it is a beautiful expression of worship to God. It is quiet, reverent and entirely focused on Christ. That’s not to say that the Mass in the vernacular is loud, irreverent and unfocused.
Alan: I asked because there are two Catholic Churches in our small town – one uses the vernacular, one only Latin.
Brian: I wonder if the church which uses only Latin is a chapel of the Society of St. Pius X. That’s the schismatic group whose 4 bishops recently had their excommunications lifted by Pope Benedict which resulted in all the media circus. The church I attend is not a part of that group.
Alan: I don’t know. I’ll check their sign when I drive by this afternoon.
Brian: So what are your thoughts on the Latin Mass, if you have any?
Alan: Well, since Paul indicates that only things that are “understandable” are edifying (1 Cor 14), I’m not sure how edifying Latin is to those who can’t understand it. What do you think?
Brian: Perhaps. It is not as though Latin is an unintelligible tongue, though. It can be effectively translated for the community as a whole. I tend to see what St. Paul is doing in 1 Cor 14 is correcting the Church at Corinth for their overemphasis of the gift of speaking in tongues over other gifts such as prophesy. That does not mean that I am opposed to the Mass being done in the vernacular, because I am not, and common sense says that being able to understand the words the priest is saying can be edifying, even if the prayers are meant for God alone. I suppose I look at it this way: the part of Mass that is essential for the congregation to know would be the readings of scripture and the sermon, and in the Tridentine Mass I attend those parts are in the vernacular. The prayers the priest says in Latin are really between him and God (i.e. as “priest” he is the mediator between the congregation and the Lord, which in the drama which is the liturgy makes him function in the person of Christ) and are not meant for the “building up” of the congregation in the way that proclaiming the scriptures is. Those who really want to know what the priest is saying when he offers his prayers usually carry a Missal with them which has the translations.
Alan: Yes, in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul specifically talks about tongues and prophecy. But, the difference in the two is that tongues is not directly edifying (because the tongues are not understandable), and prophecy is directly edifying (because the prophecy is understandable). I think we can apply these same principles to other types of activities when the church meets.
Also, in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul talks about doing things for God alone. He says those things are not for the meeting of the church. By the way, I’m not picking on the Latin or the vernacular mass. Protestant churches traditionally do things for God alone in their meetings. I think Paul was saying these things are not for the church meeting either.
Brian: The Mass is about Christ alone, and we benefit from being there for that very reason. The proclamation of the scriptures (i.e. prophesy) is for our benefit so that we may in turn return thanks, praise and most importantly adoration to the Lord who is the source of the desire to do so in the first place. I completely agree with everything that you have said.
I know you are not picking on the Latin or vernacular Mass.
Alan: What do you think the term “edification” means in 1 Corinthians 14, and why is it so important to the church?
Brian: Building up. What I believe St. Paul is getting at here is merely a continuation of the theme of 1 Cor 13, the idea of love (charity) (or in Latin caritas, Greek ἀγάπη). I think it is telling that he says in verse 4 “He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.” Speaking in a tongue builds oneself up, it seeks its own good, whereas prophesy builds up the church, i.e. it seeks the benefit of the other. To me this is reminiscent of 1 Cor 13:5, specifically love (in the beautiful language of the KJV) “seeketh not her own.” In this fashion, the one who prophesies acts in charity as Christ, always seeking the benefit of the beloved rather than himself.
Alan: Right, and 1 Cor 13-14 follow 1 Cor 12 speaking about spiritual gifts and the necessity of all the gifts in the church – even the most seemingly insignificant “gift” is actually necessary and important.
So, why do you think so few are allowed to exercise their gifts in order to edify the church when the church meets?
Brian: Do we really want to have the tower of Babel all over again? If everyone is exercising their gifts it would be chaotic.
Alan: Paul didn’t seem to think it would lead to the tower of Babel. Of course there should be order, and 2 or 3 exercising each gift when the church meets. Was Paul wrong to allow 2 or 3 tongues speakers and 2 or 3 prophets? Was he wrong to tell the prophet speaking to be silent if another stands to speak while the first is speaking? Could we be wrong in silencing most of the church?
Brian: I would tend to doubt that St. Paul was wrong. 🙂 However, if everyone is exercising their gifts en masse, how does that edify the Church? I don’t think most of the Church is silenced. I suppose it also depends on the type of meeting and how the gifts are able to build up the church, since St. Paul has instructed that all gifts must be used for the building up of the body.
Alan: 1 Cor. 14:26, Paul says, “Whenever you come together…” It sounds to me as if he expected the following instructions to apply to any time the church met together. He doesn’t give one set of instructions for some church meetings and other instructions for other meetings.
Brian: No, but he also expected order and not confusion.
That is what I was getting at.
Alan: Yes, exactly. And, Paul’s idea of order and not confusion included 2 or 3 people speaking in tongues (if there was interpretation) and 2 or 3 people prophesying plus other judging the prophecy. Paul doesn’t tell us specifically how many should bring a hymn, or an instruction, but he does list those in 1 Cor. 14:26. I would assume he would apply the same rule (2 or 3 people, with interpretation if not directly understandable and edifying). This is Paul’s definition of order.
Brian: Because interpretation lifts tongues to the level of intelligibility and thus enables them to have the same effect as prophesy.
Alan: Yes, exactly. So, do you agree that 2 or 3 utilizing each of the gifts one at a time as long as it is intelligible (or with interpretation) is Paul’s definition of order?
Brian: Sure. Are you implying that the Latin Mass does not fit the criterion?
Alan: I only know the Mass (Latin or vernacular) from a distance, so I’m not a good judge. However, I don’t think most “Protestant” church meetings fit Paul’s criterion.
Brian: That’s interesting. Could you elaborate more about how Protestant church meetings do not?
Alan: The instructions that Paul gave in 1 Cor 12-14 are to the church. So, anyone should have the opportunity to bring a hymn, instruction, prophecy, tongue (with interpretation). Of course, these should fall under his principles of orderliness (2 or 3, one at a time), love (more important than the gifts themselves), and edification (the purpose of the exercising the gifts).
In most Protestant church meetings, the leaders decide who will speak and who will not speak. Those who are not leaders are generally required to sit, listen, and sing along, and are not given the opportunity, much less the encouragement, to use the gifts that God has given them to edify the church in love in an orderly manner.
Brian: So, how do you think that could be be accomplished? I mean, the Mass is highly ritualized after centuries of its celebration. We have lay leaders who read from the scriptures, but this is according to the lectionary which divides the biblical readings over a 3 year period, so it is assigned to them by the church. And people who sing obviously contribute that gift to the assembly by being in the choir, and young boys (and in some cases) girls contribute by serving at the altar and assisting the priest. But I am not sure that those are the gifts that you have in mind.
I am going to dig around and see if I can find anything discussing this in the Church Fathers. Sometimes that can help to see how the early church interpreted things.
Alan: I think the real question is, “Is that the kind of gifts and service that Paul was talking about?”
Protestants have their “lay gifts” as well – ushering, taking up the offering, greeters, etc.
Brian: Perhaps that is where hierarchical structure may come into play. I understand that the very concept of hierarchy is repugnant to the sensibilities of many a Protestant (:-)), but the idea is that one must have their consciences formed in the faith if you are going to bear witness to it, otherwise you would have just anyone speaking as though their voices carried a weight of authority. How would you judge?
Alan: Yes, I understand that the church relies on hierarchical structure. The same is true for Protestant churches, whether the hierarchy ends at the local church (free church) or a denominational structure. But, the question that I’ve never been able to answer (and no one has been able to answer adequately for me) is this: “When the Corinthians were having so many problems, why did he not refer them to their hierarchical leaders?” The same question could be asked about the Galatians, or those in Thessalonika.
Brian: This would have been so early in the history of the Church (St. Paul’s letters were early!) that perhaps those kind of questions had not even been addressed by those folks and they had to be referred to St. Paul or perhaps one of the other apostles. St. Peter’s letters are instructional as well, as are the letters to the Hebrews, of St. James, and all of St. John’s.
Alan: Yes, they are all instructional. But, the church did have leaders. When Paul went on his second missionary journey, he helped appoint/recognize elders in all the churches. He left Timothy in Ephesus and Titus in Crete for a short time to appoint/recognize leaders. The author of Hebrews recognizes leaders among the churches that he writes to. James also speaks of elders in the churches. Yet, in spite of these church leaders, very little instruction was given specifically to the leaders, even when it comes to doctrinal matters. Instead, the instructions were give to the church at large. For example, in Corinth, the church was responsible for learning from Paul’s letter and correcting the problems of division, communion, their church meeting, etc. – this was not the responsibility of the leaders/elders, but the church.
Brian: I think that is where we must consider the question, did the canon of scripture contain the entirety of what was handed on to the early church? It is probable that St. Paul formed many of these leaders himself, much like he himself was formed in the faith by the twelve, and likewise, St. Timothy and St. Titus did as well. This would make sense when considering that St. Paul admonished the church at Thessalonika to “hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” Or to the church at Philippi, “What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.” And to the church at Corinth, “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.” All of these statements would imply a core faith which was given to the churches prior to these letters being written. If I am not mistaken, the instructional letters written to the early church were meant to be corrective rather than catechetical, although correction in matters of faith and doctrine would be catechetical as well.
Alan: I agree with what you said, except that Paul specifically said that he was not taught by the Twelve (in Galatians, I think). I agree that there was a core faith that was taught both by the apostles and by others. I think this core was eventually labeled the Regula Fidei. I think Ignatius simply called it “The Gospel”.
So, when churches started straying from this core – as in Corinth or Galatia – why did Paul not call for the leaders/elders/priests/whatever to straighten everyone out?
Brian: You are right. He immediately went to Arabia, but then went to Jerusalem to render a visit to St. Peter and St. James. Regardless, St. Paul did not learn the faith in a vacuum. It was revealed to him, probably by the Lord Jesus in large part when he was blinded on the road to Damascus.
Perhaps the leaders were part of the problem, and this required correction from a person higher in authority. These are difficult but excellent questions that I am not sure we will ever be able to get straight answers to.
But I see similar practices at work in the Catholic Church today. If a priest (which is simply an early English corruption of the term presbyter) has a question regarding practice or doctrine, he usually petitions his bishop for the answer, not the priest in charge of his deanery. And believe me, there are times when the bishop has to call the priest on the carpet to correct an error. This is happening now in Australia and also has happened recently in St. Louis where you have renegade priests who are teaching heretical viewpoints. Then you have papal encyclicals and apostolic letters which are meant to address the church on matters of faith and discipline. One example that comes to mind is Pope John Paul II (of blessed memory)’s Ordinatio sacerdotalis whereby he stated, “Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.” Now, when a pope uses that sort of terminology, he is saying this is an infallible doctrine revealed to the church by God which cannot be altered by man.
Alan: Again, I think the church (Catholic and Protestant and probably Orthodox, but I’m not as familiar with that one) has set up a hierarchy to take care of these kinds of problems and to control what happens when the church meets. However, once again, I do not see this in Scripture. I think these structures may harm the church as much as (if not more than) they help.
You’re right, Paul did not learn about Christ in a vacuum. He learned from the risen Christ himself. It seems that he encouraged other believers to learn from the risen Christ as well… with more mature believers there to help, but not to control. I believe that we can learn from the risen Christ today. Even an immature believer is indwelled by the Holy Spirit and can be used by God to teach, encourage, prophesy, etc. In fact, if Paul is correct in 1 Cor 12, then the gifts of that immature believer is just as important (if not more important) than the more noticeable gifts of mature believers.
Unfortunately, the church has silenced all believers, except for those in official positions.
Imagine for a moment that in the middle of your next Mass, someone walks toward the priest and says that the Spirit has given him something to say. What would happen? I can tell you that in most church meetings that I’ve been part of, that person would be considered out of order. But, in 1 Cor 14, Paul says that is perfectly in order.
Brian: Well, it would depend on what kind of Mass you were at, believe it or not. I don’t think it would be completely out of the ordinary for someone to walk up to the priest in a charismatic Mass and do just that. But, you are right. Typically the Mass is very ritualized and everything has its place and time, and while I don’t think a priest would stop someone from doing such a thing, he may tell him that it would be more appropriate after Mass, and furthermore, it may cause some disquieted feelings amongst the congregation. But, I appreciate and respect what you are saying, and as a matter of fact, I will bring it up with my pastor and with my bishop and see what their take on it is. I think it does have merit.
Thinking the things of God
My son, Jeremy, and I left our house just before 8:00 a.m. this morning. It is our month to help set up the chairs and sound system for our church meeting. Two of our friends joined us, and we had a good time talking to one another as we prepared for the meeting. We returned home just after 9:00 a.m. to pick up Margaret and Miranda.
Margaret had started a pot of beef stew this morning, so when everyone was ready (a little after 10:00 a.m.) we loaded the stew into the van and drove to our meeting location. We put the stew on the stove there so it would cook little longer. Then we talked with some of our friends while we waited for the meeting to officially begin.
We caught up with some old friends and met some new friends. One couple who has been meeting with us for a few weeks invited us to dinner next week. Another couple who we’ve known for several years told us about their plans to move to South Carolina in the couple of weeks.
If I’m at the meeting, I usually start our meeting. Its not necessary for me to start the meeting, in fact, sometimes I don’t and someone else does. But, sometime around 10:40 a.m. I started our meeting by reading Hebrews Chapter 1. (We usually read through a book to start our meetings. We just started Hebrews today, so we’ll read through it over the next 13 weeks.) This was a great chapter to begin our meeting with the reminder that God now reveals himself through Jesus, who is not like angels.
My friend Jared led us in singing a few songs. Two brothers played guitar while another brother played bass. A fourth brother played keyboards. One of the young ladies was going to play flute, but she decided to sing with Jared instead. We sang some old hymns, new hymns, and new choruses.
At one point, my friend Jim read 1 Corinthians 2, which I had chosen to go along with the passage that I was teaching. (The person who is scheduled to teach also chooses a passage of Scripture to be read and asks someone to read it during our meeting.) This passage reminds us that God speaks to us through his Spirit, not through rhetoric or fancy speech. Plus, we can now know things about God that were once unheard of. The phrase “what eye has not seen and ear has not heard” refers to what we now know because we have “the mind of Christ”.
Next, I taught from Matthew 16:21-23. Jesus had just praised Peter because God had revealed himself to Peter (16:17). However, now Peter has begun to think “the things of man” again. Instead, Jesus rebukes Peter and exhorts him tothink “the things of God”. This is a great exhortation for us to think with “the mind of Christ”, not in the ways of the natural man.
My friend, Mael, facilitated the remainder of the meeting, encouraging brothers and sisters in Christ to share what God was doing in their lives or what they had been learning lately. Several people responded to the passage that we studied today, confessing how that had been thinking “the things of man” – trying to talk God out of something, telling God they can’t do what he wants them to do, etc.
One man shared how he was learning that the more mature you get in the Spirit, the more you realize how dependent you are on God. In other areas of life, the more you know the more independent you get. Not so for our life with God.
After several people had time to share, we laid hands on and prayed for Geth and his wife, Katie. Geth wants to work with prisoners, and the church affirmed him and his desire to serve God through serving prisoners.
We spend about 30 minutes talking and fellowshiping with one another. Then we served our beef stew to our family and another family and whoever wanted some. Other people brought in food – either food they had made and brought from home or had picked up at a local restaurant. We ate and talked some more.
Eventually, as people started leaving, we put away the chairs and the sound system and headed home. We got home around 3:00 p.m. So, we spent about 5 hours with the church (not counting the setup time this morning). This is the format of our normal church meeting. We have time for singing and scheduled teaching, but we also have time for sharing and fellowship.
As a church, we think that all of this is important – in fact, I would say it is all part of “thinking the things of God”. So, since we think this is important, we set aside time for singing, teaching, and fellowship.
Church Stuff
I’m glad to see that other people are continuing to ask questions about the church and ecclesiology. Here are a few posts I’ve run across this week:
- Bryan at “Charis Shalom” in “Rethinking Church“
- Eric at “A Pilgrim’s Progress” in “Church Gatherings: Are All things To Be Done for ‘Worship’?“
- Douglas at “Douglas Weaver” in “What is the Church?“
There were other good posts, but I wanted to highlight these three.
Also, if you haven’t read it yet, make sure you read Strider’s (“Tales from Middle Earth“) latest story in a post called “What Can Pop Up At a Funeral“. Strider tells the story of a modern-day resurrection.
Edification as Worship
JT at “Between Two Worlds” points us to several lectures concerning worship in his post “Lectures on Worship“.
I was delighted to see that the first few lectures were given by David Peterson, author of one of my favorite books Engaging with God: A Biblical Theology of Worship (IVP 2002). (If you haven’t read this book, you should.) I was also delighted to see the title of Peterson’s fourth lecture: “Meeting God in the Gathering of His People“.
Then, as I started listening to this lecture – hoping to hear what I had read in his book – I was thrilled when Peterson says at the very beginning, “Edification is the lost factor in alot of our discussions about worship”. Yes!
Later in the lecture (around the 34 minute mark), Peterson begins defining “edification”:
And in Christian terms, “building” means founding, maintaining, and advancing the church in God’s way. Now that definition needs to be set aside of what I think are some fairly common misapprehensions.
First of all, a lot of people think that edification purely has to do with education – that it’s a purely intellectual activity. And so you say, “Was that an edifying sermon today?” “Yes, I learned alot”. hmmm… well, that’s not exactly what the Bible means by edification as we will see.
Or, I’ve heard people come out of a symphony concert, “That Beethoven was very edifying tonight”. And what they mean is, “I felt good about that Beethoven. My that was exciting!” I feel good. That’s not edification either.
Edification is a corporate concept. It has to do with founding, maintaining, and advancing the church in Gods way.
Peterson goes on to exegete several passages of Scripture to demonstrate that edification means both adding to the church in number, and also increasing the maturity of the church corporately. Edification of a process of growth and development for the whole church. He says, “Edification is a corporate motion. It occurs when Christians minister God’s truth to one another in love, seeking to express and encourage a Christ-centered faith, hope, and love.”
At one point in the lecture, Peterson talks about the blurring of distinctions between the vertical aspect of worship (between God and us) and the horizontal aspect of worship (between us and other people). He says (around the 21 minute mark):
So the three things can be happening together: 1) God can be speaking to us. 2) We are ministering to one another. 3) And we are responding to God. It’s silly to make artificial distinctions between the vertical and the horizontal…. Is not worship also listening to God, ministering to one another, declaring his greatness, preaching, testimony, singing. The whole thing needs to be thought of as intricately interconnected – the vertical and the horizontal… That’s really at the heart of what I’m trying to say to you this afternoon.
As John told his readers (1 John 1:3), our fellowship with one another is truly fellowship with God the Father and the Son. Its time for us to recognize that we usually demonstrate our love for God by loving others, and we serve God by serving others – especially in a corporate context.
As we build up one another – as we exercise our gifts to serve one another and as we speak to encourage, instruct, and admonish one another – we are worshiping God. The horizontal aspects of worship and the vertical aspects of worship become blurred. However, if we fail to edify one another, then we have neither the horizontal nor the vertical aspects of worship – regardless of what we do or say.
As Paul told the church in Corinth, whenever we come together as brothers and sisters in Christ, everything we do should be for the purpose of building up one another – that is, seeking to express and encourage a Christ-centered faith, hope, and love. If we are not edifying one another as the church, then we are not worshiping.
True marks of the church
Thank you to Dave Black for reminding us of “the true marks of the church” (Sunday, March 1, 2:42 pm):
Our fellowship has the true marks of the church — love for Christ and love for others. However biblical a church may be, however orthodox its theology, however properly it may “observe the sacraments,” however accurately it may “preach the Word,” it is not a true church unless it is characterized by love and mutual edification. So let me thank the sister who reminded me this morning of the importance of forgiveness, the brother who reminded me that church is not a place but a people, the sister who reminded me that God is still in the miracle-working business, and the brother who reminded me that I am saved by grace alone. I have not earned it, nor could I earn it.
I also thank God for those brothers and sisters in Christ who often demonstrate “the true marks of the chruch” toward us and those around them.
Interview with Jon Zens
Lionel at “The Gospel in 3-D” recently interviewed Jon Zens. I’ve seen Jon’s name here and there, but I’ve never read any of his articles or books. This interview is an encouragement to me and comples me to want to read his writings.
Here is one snippet from the interview:
Lionel: What are the pros and cons of the way you folks meet? What has been your experience in other words?
JZ: Well, it seems to us that an “open meeting” best expresses the NT contours (cf. John H. Yoder, “The Rule of Paul,” Body Politics, pp.61-70). Pursuing the ways of the Lord will always be fraught with difficulties. But the problems will be answered with maturity and seeking the Lord together, not in imposing a hierarchy and a church bulletin. The benefits of letting Christ guide the gathering are inestimable. Any issues that come up – certain people talking too much, off-the-wall things being presented, inappropriate remarks being shared – an atmosphere of love can absorb and take care of. In the first century meetings, as Frank Viola points out, “everything came out of the living presence of Christ” (Reimagining Church, p.53). If He isn’t there, then nothing will go right, even if you have a so-called open meeting.
I would simply add one thing… If Christ isn’t there, it doesn’t matter if everything does “go right”.
Share your "recipes" for mutual edification
Last Friday, I re-published a post called “Spiritual Gifts and the Gathered Church“. In that post, I said that according to Scripture, the whole body should participate in the church meeting in order to exercise their spiritual gifts. Through this mutual service of edification, the whole church is then grown toward maturity in Jesus Christ. This is the responsibility of all believers, not just some who may be specially trained or specially gifted. I said:
The people should be given the opportunity to use their gifts when the church is assembled, and they should be reminded that God holds them responsible for this. In other words, if someone is in charge of the meeting time, that person should make sure that others are given opportunity to edify the church. And, the people gathered should be reminded that God wants them to participate and expects them to participate in building up the body.
In response, Sam – a frequent commenter – said:
Honestly, I have never seen this happen. Perhaps you or those who reads this blog have stories about such groups. I’d love to hear them.
Later, he expanded his request as follows:
The idea is not to copy what you are doing, but to hear it. Perhaps the Spirit will speak to some of us and give us ideas through your stories.
For me, this is like the way I cook. I read recipes, get ideas, then make something perhaps similar, or perhaps very different. The muffins I took to our small group last night were like that. I read other muffin recipes, then came up with my own, and they were very good and kind of healthy. Now I need to write down what I did while I still remember.
The purpose of this post is to provide the examples that Sam requested. Again, this is not to tell people how to “do church”. Since church is the gathered people of God, and since people have different gifts and different services, then church meetings will look different from time to time and from place to place.
But, like Sam requested, we can give examples that may help stir up ideas for other people. We can show how the body in serving one another in the church meeting here and now in order to provide examples for other churches meeting there and then.
I’ll start by posting Kat’s response in the comments of that post:
Although one of our elders usually shares a longer message from Scripture, there is always as much time as needed for others in the body to share what God is teaching them, as well as needs and praises. Needs are prayed for when they are shared. Someone shares weekly updates from the missionary families we have sent out; others lead in song or read scripture. Different men lead in the Lord’s Supper when that is shared as part of the worship service. Once a month, one or two families prepare a fellowship lunch or supper for the rest.
Throughout the week, a number of people provide care for the elderly mother of a Christian family and transport her to dialysis. Some mentor and encourage others. I have a cookie ministry to encourage families who are going through difficulties. Not all on Sundays, but it all works.
I am also writing curriculum to use as Bible lessons for children. This morning I read in Luke 4 that Jesus told His neighbors in Nazareth that “no prophet is accepted in his own country.”
God has called us all to serve and has given us the gifts we need to do it. Having the mindset that only the professionals are qualified to serve has, IMO, robbed people of the motivation and confidence they need to live as God intended. And we also need to accept the prophet who may be sitting in the pew next to us. God intends for us to edify each other when we allow His Holy Spirit to speak.
Similarly, Joe (JR) left a link to a post (“Doing church around tables“) on his blog where he described their church meetings. Joe describes how meeting around tables shapes their meetings. This quote specifically speaks to the topic at hand:
Tables shape our discipleship: Discipleship begins at the tables where people laugh together, cry, pray, share communion, make new friends, deepen existing relationships, and discuss the importance of serving Jesus in everyday life. Tables also create a natural opportunity for everyone to use their giftings, wisdom, or ideas to strengthen the church Family.
Finally, I’ll share briefly what generally happens when we meet together on Sundays. Our meetings begin with someone reading Scripture. We usually read through book – one chapter per week. We just finished reading 1 Thessalonians. If I’m starting our meeting, I’ll usually start by asking a question as well, such as “Why are you here?” or “Who have you loved recently?”
Several people take turns leading us in singing week after week. Different people will lead each week, and different people will play instruments. Sometimes we have one person singing and playing guitar. At other times, we’ll have several guitars, a djembe, keyboards, and even flute or mandolin.
Also, each week someone is scheduled to teach from a particular passage in Scripture. Currently, we’re studying through Matthew’s Gospel. While this teaching is primarily done by our elders, others are given the opportunity to teach as well. The person who is teaching can choose their style and methods – from lecture to discussion.
After this scheduled teaching, we have a time when anyone is allowed to teach, exhort, share, etc. with the whole body. Sometimes someone will share something that God has taught them through their own study (either on the passage that was taught or a different passage). Sometimes someone will share from something that has happened to them or a friend. Also, as people ask for prayer, again either for themselves or others, we pray right then.
We “dismiss” our formal meeting at that point, but people continue to talk with one another, usually for a long time. We also begin setting up for lunch. Those who want to stay for lunch will eat together and continue their discussions, prayer, etc. around the table.
What about you? How do you meet with the church in ways that allow the whole body to use their gifts to build up one another and help one another grow in maturity in Christ? Even though Sam asked for the examples, I know that many of my readers (myself included) would love to read your examples.
The Function of Congregations in the NT
I’ve enjoyed the parts of I. Howard Marshall’s New Testament Theology (Downers Grove: IVP, 2004) that I’ve had the opportunity to read. Recently, I read his chapter called “The Theology of the Pauline Letters”. This section in particular caught my attention:
From these considerations we can understand the functions that Paul ascribes to the congregation.
First, if the congregation is the place of God’s presence, then God is active in it. Here Paul develops his idea of the spiritual gifts or charismata that are manifested in the congregation through the various activities of the Spirit in different individuals… The purpose of these activities is so that the members of the congregation may work for their common good and thus promote the edification of the church, that is, the maturing of its members in their faith, love and hope. The congregation thus becomes the kind of community that God wishes his people to be, characterized by having the same aims and mutual concern for one another, since they seek to please God and their brothers and sisters rather than selfishly pleasing themselves.
Second, as the place where God is present and active, the congregation acts as a witness to the world of the divine reality (cf. 1 Cor 14:22-25).
Third, the congregation is the place where prayer and praise are made to God. Although these activities are scarcely mentioned in Paul’s descriptions of congregational practices, nevertheless the calls to pray in his letters indicates that this was a significant aspect of the meeting…
Fourth, the congregational meeting was held in a domestic setting in which the sharing of a meal was natural. From 1 Corinthians we learn that the meal was intended to be stamped by the fact that at its heart was a sharing of bread and a cup that symbolized the dying of Christ for his people and his sacrificial inauguration of the new covenant… The sharing together symbolized the fact that all believers belong to the one body and thus was a means of expressing the unity of believers with one another, no matter what their racial and social backgrounds…
In this context it is unnecessary to go into details about the organization of the congregations. We have seen that for Paul the Spirit is active in the different ministries performed by the members and that in principle each and every believer can contribute in this way and indeed is under obligation to exercise the gifts and functions conferred by the Spirit. (456-457)
In this book – and this passage – Marshall’s purpose is to explain what he finds in Scripture. Thus, it is a descriptive task. He is describing the church as he finds it in Scripture, not as he finds it today, nor as he thinks is practical, nor as he believes it should look in today’s cultures.
If I look at Marshall’s four-fold descriptions of congregations in the New Testament, I see only one of those (#3 – prayer and praise) consistently practiced by churches today. The other 3 are primarily assigned to the religious professionals hired by churches and not considered to be the “obligation” of “each and every believer”.
Furthermore, while examining Paul’s descriptions, Marshall says that Paul finds it unnecessary to go into details about organization. Yet, it seems that today churches spend much of their time, energy, and resources on organization.
Regardless of what we think the church should look like today or how we think the church should act or function today, I think its clear from Marshall’s descriptions that we’ve strayed far from how the church looked and functioned in the New Testament. We all have to decide for ourselves if this is a good thing or a bad thing.
Marriage and Discipleship
Last year, as Margaret and I were spending time with a young couple who were planning to get married, I wrote a post called “Marriage and Discipleship“. In this post, I suggested that if discipleship happened primarily through relationships, then our primary disciple and our primary discipler should be our spouse – at least for those of us who are married. I hope you enjoy this post.
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A couple of months ago, two new friends of ours asked Margaret and me if we would do pre-marital counseling for them. We started meeting with them a couple of weeks ago. It has been a blessing to get to know them more and to encourage them as they prepare to be married.
I don’t treat “pre-marital” counseling much differently that other opportunities of discipleship. My desire is to help them grow in maturity in Christ. As this happens, their relationship with one another will also grow and mature.
The last time we met, we talked about the sanctifying nature of marriage. Actually, they brought this up. They can already see how God is using their relationship with one another to grow them spiritually.
Before two followers of Jesus Christ are married – before they are husband and wife – they are brother and sister in Christ. Thus, the foundational relationship for a marriage is the relationship between believers. Also, since this brother and sister in Christ is spending so much time together, it is by nature a discipling relationship. Of course, it may not be a positive discipling relationship, but it is a discipling relationship nonetheless.
So, marriage is based on a discipling relationship. The husband and wife should encourage one another and help one another grow toward maturity in Christ. Since the two spend so much time together, and since they know one another better than anyone else, and since they are probably more open and honest with one another than with anyone else, marriage is also the most important discipling relationship.
While it is important for this discipling relationship to include activities such as prayer and reading Scripture together, there is much more involved in this. In fact, if a couple (or any two or more people) only pray and read Scripture together, I would not call that a discipling relationship. Instead, in a discipling relationship the people help one another follow Jesus Christ, recognizing that the other person is not perfect, accepting and loving them as they are, and helping them grow through the trials and struggles of life.
I think it helps a marriage to recognize that the two people are in this type of discipling relationship. When we read Scripture as it defines how believers should interact with one another, we should also recognize that this describes how a married couple should interact with one another as well. For example, consider this important passage from Philippians:
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. (Philippians 2:3-4 ESV)
While Paul writes this in general to followers of Christ in Philippi, it is especially applicable to a husband and wife in their interaction with one another. In fact, I think it is impossible to understand a husband’s role in a marriage or a wife’s role in a marriage without first recognizing these and other basic responsibilities that one believer has toward another believer.
As I look back over the time that Margaret and I have been married, I can see that Margaret has been my primary discipler throughout that time. I have learned more about God and life from her than from anyone else – and that includes pastors, preachers, and teachers. Why? Because I am with her every day. I see my own faults and weaknesses and sins most clearly in my relationship with her. I learn from her words and examples more than from anyone else.
And, perhaps most importantly, God expresses his love for me through Margaret than through anyone else on earth – in other words, Margaret is the channel through which God most demonstrates his love for me. This does not mean that Margaret is perfect, or that her demonstration of God’s love is on the same level as Christ’s demonstration of God’s love. But, God’s love is real and clear and intimate – and our relationship has been the best reflection of that love.
Have you thought about your relationship with your spouse as a discipling relationship? Have you thought about your spouse as your discipler? What insights can you add to this discussion?
Not forsaking, but encouraging
Two years ago, I wrote a post called “Not forsaking, but encouraging“. This remains one of my favorite exegetical posts that I’ve written. Why? Because I think Hebrews 10:24-25 is often misused in the church today. This passage does not command attendance at a “worship service”. What does this passage say to believers today? Read on…
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“Not forsaking, but encouraging“
I have read several commenaries, articles, essays, and blog posts that use Hebrews 10:25 as an proof that Christians should regularly attend Sunday morning meetings. But, is that what Hebrews 10:25 teaches? First, read the verse within its context:
Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near. (Heb. 10:19-25 NASB)
Notice how the phrase “not forsaking our own assembling” relates to the other parts of this sentence, since this is actually one long sentence.
Since therefore, brethren,
- we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
- and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
- let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
- Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
- and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another;
- and all the more, as you see the day drawing near.
(Some of this may be a little technical. If you get bogged down, please keep reading. I try to explain things in both a technical and also a non-technical way.)
Notice that this sentence is composed of one conditional clause (“Now therefore, brethren, since…”) followed by three subjunctive clauses used as commands, then an adverbial clause describing how we should do these commands.
In other words, the author is saying since we have confidence and since we have a high priest, as a response to these things, we should (as a command) do three things: 1) draw near with a sincere heart, 2) hold fast the confession, and 3) consider how to stimulate one another. In fact, we should do these three things “all the more” because the day (return of Christ) is drawing near.
The first two commands are fairly straightforward. First, we are to draw near to God – “to God” is implied because the author has just told us that there is a new and living way into the very holiest place, which is the presence of God to the author of Hebrews (see Heb. 9:24-25). Second, we are to hold fast to our confession, that is, our faith. We can do this because our faith is in God, and God does not waver or falter or change his mind. He keeps his promises.
How do we carry out these commands? Do we do them individually or corporately? Well, we certainly help one another with this. However, you cannot draw me near to God. You cannot hold fast my confession. In the same way, there is no group, church, organization, institution, etc. who can do these things for any believer. These are individual requirements.
The phrase that we are interested in (“not forsaking our own assembling together”) is actually part of the third command, and it is carried out in response to the conditional clause. This is important. The phrase does not stand by itself, and it should not be removed from this context.
Furthermore, the phrase describes what the author means when he says that we should “consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds”. We do this (“stimulate one another to…”) by “not forsaking” which is followed quickly by “but encouraging”. So, the opposite of “not forsaking” is “encouraging”. This also is very important. The author wants the readers (and us) to think seriously about how to stimulate other believers toward “love and good deeds”. How does he expect us to do that? He does not want us to “forsake” our meeting togther, but instead he wants us to encourage one another. Apparently, some were already “forsaking” their meeting together. (I have previously published an examination of this word “forsaking” in a post called “Not Forsaking the Assembling of Ourselves Together“. In that post, I argue that “not forsaking” means something like “not giving up your responsibilities”.)
The author of Hebrews expects us to lead others toward a life of love and good deeds. In order to do this, he understands that we must encourage one another. Instead, he finds that some of the believers are giving up their responsibilities when they meet together. This could happen in several ways, at least two of which come to mind.
First, the believers could stop meeting together. If this happened, then they would not be able to carry out their responsibilities toward one another; they would not be able to encourage one another. They would be “forsaking” their meeting together. This is usually the only case that is considered, and it is usually assumed that this “meeting together” must be an official meeting (sometimes called “Sunday Morning Worship Service”). However, this is not what the text says. Instead, the author could have any meeting of believers in view. If the readers stopped meeting with other believers at all, then they could not encourage one another.
Second, the believers may have been meeting with one another, but they were neglecting their responsibilities toward one another. In this case, they were still guilty of “forsaking” their assembling together. In other words, attendance alone does not allow a believer to keep this command. Meeting with other believers plus encouraging other believers is necessary to carry out the meaning of this passage.
But, when we gather together, surely believers are encouraged even if we do nothing, right? Yes, but that is not the point here. Other believers may have drawn near to God, but that does not mean that I have. Other believers may be holding fast to the confession of faith, but it doesn’t mean that I am. Other believers may be thinking about others and how to stir up love and good deeds within them, but it doesn’t mean that I do that.
Just as the other commands are individual requirements (“draw near” and “hold fast”), so also this command is an individual requirement.
Think about this carefully. If this examination is correct, then no group, church, leader, organization, pastor, preacher, etc. can carry out this requirement for you. God expects each individual believer to build up other believers by thinking carefully about them and stirring up love and good deeds within them, by not neglecting their responsibilities when they meet, but by encouraging other believers.
I am afraid that in many cases, believers have neglected this command, and have handed their responsibilities over to others. Many times, believers are happy to sit, sing, and listen, because they think they are obeying God by attending. Is God interested in attendance? No more than he was interested in burnt offerings and sacrifice. God is interested in obedience.
One more point before I finish. Notice that, in this passage, there is no particular meeting in view. This means that anytime believers get together, they have responsibilities toward one another… whether they are gathering officially on Sunday mornings, or whether they get together for coffee. We must never neglect our responsibilities toward one another, but instead we must encourage one another.