Scripture… As We Live It #231
This is the 231st passage in “Scripture… As We Live It.”
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way, which means that you should also pray against and work against those kings and others in high positions who are not Christians because it’s impossible to lead a peaceful, quiet, and godly life under an ungodly government. (1 Timothy 2:1-2 re-mix)
(Please read the first post for an explanation of this series.)
Alan come on, we only have to submit to rulers with (R) after their name.
Alan,
But our President is a Christian! I mean…isn’t he? And we all know Jesus wants to occupy The White House.
Hail to the Chief, indeed.
Like I have said, it is not the governments of men Jesus wants to usurp. It’s the hearts of men He wants to usurp.
Thanks for my daily dose of sarcastic snark, Alan. 😉
Donald…absolutely spot on. See if this post lines up with what you just said. Just some of my thoughts on the “Spiritual Future” of our nation. If it is okay with you, I want to quote what you said about Jesus not wanting to usurp the governments.
http://wp.me/pxy7r-5m
Alan…excellent sarcasm with a brilliant point. No matter who you vote for, no matter what your party…we are to pray FOR our leaders. Is it not God who appoints leaders, anyway? Can’t God still reveal His glory no matter who sits in the Oval Office?
John,
Brother, please feel free to use those words of mine. I would be honored, actually.
Donald,
You’re going to be honored twice then, brother! I have to use that line in my book about politics and Christianity. Of course it may never get published but still…you and I will know!
Mike
“Is it not God who appoints leaders, anyway?”
Not necessarily. God didn’t direct us to select a man to rule over us. Man chose that. Be careful what you ask for (a king like the heathen have or an extraneous mediator between God and man).
“Can’t God still reveal His glory no matter who sits in the Oval Office?” Yes. In spite of our disobedience. In the midst of our consequences due to our choices…yes he can.
Eric,
Romans 13:1 says-
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.” ESV
It is upon this that I derive my belief that God our Father appoints and ordains all authority, according to His will and not to our wishes. In The Kingdom there is no democracy.
True enough, we have been screaming for a King for thousands of years. And our Father provides them, be they evil or righteous. But He ordains them, each and every one, according to His will. In this upcoming 2012 Presidential election, we will again see His Sovereign hand at work.
Mike S,
Brilliant! I look forward to (not) reading your book, then! 😉
Donald,
Being subject to the earthly governing authorities is altogether different than choosing them. Be careful what you ask for.
Eric,
I’m not asking for anything. I will vote my conscience and God my Father will make His selection, not once asking me what I think about politics.
So you mean to tell me that when Paul says God institutes all authority, this means I am asking for a King?
I have a King. I am a Kingdom son. My government is His Kingdom. I’m not asking man to choose anything. I know my Father will do so of His own will, and He will choose that which He deems as fitting for us.
I’m thinking you are not understanding what I am apparently vainly seeking to say here. No worries.
“So you mean to tell me that when Paul says God institutes all authority, this means I am asking for a King?”
No. It means God institutes all authority. I am saying when you vote for a man to be your president/ruler/king over 300 million+ people, then you are most certainly asking for him to be something very much exactly like a king, though we Americans would never use the word “king”.
Israel rejected God and asked for Samuel to make them a king “that we may be also like all the nations and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles”. They used the corrupt actions of men (Samuel’s sons) as their excuse. They received a king. Instituted by God. With a curse and consequences. There was no turning back. Be careful what you ask for, but by all means vote your conscience (if it allows you to vote).
Eric,
I appreciate the Old Testament lesson, but again, you are not hearing me. Please stop saying I shall get what I ask for. I ask for no King other than Jesus. I could give two craps less about the governments of men, for they will all fall and worship Jesus at His timing.
I vote because I’m a Veteran, or I choose to not vote also because I’m a Veteran. Have I given you the impression in my comments that I am pinning all my hopes on a mere man in a secular office? By my voting do you think I am ignoring Jesus and begging for a King? Oy.
We deserve what God my Father gives us as leadership.
Can I just tell you that if I posted this “Scripture as we live it” as my FB status, I would probably be stoned to death (not literally, but it sure feels that way at times)? You hit the nail on the head.
Don, I’m hearing you, I just don’t think I’m understanding you.
“Have I given you the impression in my comments that I am pinning all my hopes on a mere man in a secular office? By my voting do you think I am ignoring Jesus and begging for a King?”
Well, you broke out Romans 13 on that “mere man in a secular office” that now you “could give two craps less about”, so I don’t really know what you mean (no offense) or why you vote at all. I know for myself I have to ask what really am I expecting in someone to act as “president” of 300 million+ people. Should I be expecting that of anyone? Someone I’ve never even met? I don’t find any kind of biblical basis for this selection of a man, if in fact he is not our “king”, which is what most no one wants to admit we are doing. Is it just extra-biblical or anti-biblical? I can find some basis for recognizing wisdom and age and maybe judges of small matters (Exodus 18) and elders, but not a leader over all in a secular government “like the Gentiles”, at least not in a kind light. So I am at the point of should I even participate in this, kind of like choosing the best hireling? So many are looking for the “right man” to fix everything. Israel only found relief when they turned to God. I don’t think that changed with the New Testament (Matt. 11:28-30). I think Paul recognized that the situation was not right, though government has a purpose to punish the evildoer and reward them that do well, when the government is corrupt it isn’t right. Abimelech, Hophni & Phineas, Samuel’s sons, Saul, Ahab, Herod or Caesar. But we can pray for it to be righted and live in subjection to it in the meanwhile.
Eric,
I fear this topic is exhausted, but let me return to the original contention I had with your words.
I originally asked the question: “Is it not God who appoints leaders, anyway?” to which you replied: “Not necessarily.” Looking at Romans 13:1, I believe your response of ‘not necessarily’ to be erroneous. There is no grey area here in The Scripture.
You then kept telling me to be careful what I was asking for. I am asking for nothing. I say that God ordains and determines all authority, and you tell me to be careful what I ask for. I’m not asking. I am basically bowing and submitting to His Sovereignty, as a son. Whether it’s Mitt or Barack, the choice is His to make and His will shall be done.
This is the point I was making. This is what I was saying. Do we have an understanding now, or shall I be forced to throw up my hands and walk away?
“I originally asked the question: “Is it not God who appoints leaders, anyway?”
I was responding to John’s question above. Are you posting under both names?
“Whether it’s Mitt or Barack, the choice is His to make and His will shall be done.”
I don’t put God in the R vs. D box. Be careful what you
askvote for, but by all means vote your conscience (if it allows you to vote).Eric,
D’Oh! I mistakenly took John’s words thinking they were mine, due to my poor eyesight and because it sounded like something I would have said! Yikes! So, no, I did NOT say what I said I said. (say that fast three times) Totally my mistake, totally. I apologize for this misunderstanding. I am not John from 2btrue.
As to your comment about putting God into the R vs. D box, that is a silly statement. Eric, like it or not, it is coming down to the R vs. the D. It’s either Mitt or Barack. That has not a thing to do with Christianity. At all. Is there another person or persons to be on the Presidential ballot for 2012? If so, where were these people during the Presidential debates?
Again, you say I need to be careful what I ask/vote for. This makes no sense to me, since I have made it crystal clear I am not asking for a president to replace Jesus as my King. I will be voting for, or not voting for, a man to be the secular president of a secular nation. Big difference.
Don,
Thanks for the clarification/confirmation that you really aren’t also John… 🙂
I want to ask you about a couple of your statements and I’ll answer a couple of your questions as well (’cause I’m still not understanding your position on presidential elections):
“like it or not, it is coming down to the R vs. the D. It’s either Mitt or Barack. That has not a thing to do with Christianity.”
Ok. I agree that it has nothing to do with Christianity. I can’t find any biblical instruction to engage in a nationwide election for a man to rule over us or how to evaluate a nation-wide president or what his qualifications would be. But…if it has nothing to do with Christianity, is it God’s will simply because it exists? Is it something I should participate in by selecting the un-Christian (man-made as you called it) government leader? If all higher or governmental authority is instituted by God, how can a nation’s government have nothing to do with Christianity, but we are instructed to be subject to it because God instituted it?
“Is there another person or persons to be on the Presidential ballot for 2012?”
Oh yes. There are many more candidates. I think over 400 in all, but only a handful are going to appear on enough state ballots to have a mathematical chance in the electoral college (assuming R and D do not cheat). Of course, if we believe that God is choosing the candidate and not the voters then all of them are eligible, yes?
“If so, where were these people during the Presidential debates?”
They are intentionally prevented from appearing in them by the Republican and Democratic parties. These two parties (since 1987) directly control the Commission on Presidential Debates which controls the candidates that are allowed to appear before you in debate on the major media outlets. Ross Perot in 1992 was the last time an interloper was allowed on the stage, because he was wealthy enough to cause a ruckus outside them. Further, the debates themselves are rigged/controlled as to be little more than a beauty contest. The two R/D nominees have used contracts, a.k.a. scripts, for the debates for the last several elections. See the current one here. We are being sold a lie, a false dilemma of R vs. D (whether or not we should be interested in selecting a president in a government that “has nothing to do with Christianity” as you say. Right now I can’t vote for any of these. Additionally, I am questioning whether selecting this one person to rule over us is even scriptural. I can’t find it, but am open to instruction.
“I will be voting for, or not voting for, a man to be the secular president of a secular nation. Big difference.”
That man (if you vote for him) still rules over us – and if you vote for him, you have chosen that. I am begging you to be careful about whom you choose to rule over you and me and 300 million others, because you just might get it. I don’t think that my vote (or non-vote) means nothing simply because the current government is not following God and His judgments. I think I am accountable for these things.
You earlier quoted Romans 13 for that leader of the secular government as being appointed by God as a higher or governing authority. But then this “man-made government” has “nothing to do with Christianity”. I am truly having trouble resolving those. If you can not throw up your hands one last time 🙂 and help me understand that, I’d be grateful.